Home // Texts // Carolyn Cooper Im Mai 2010 war die jamaikanische Kulturwissenschaftlerin Carolyn Cooper zu Gast in der Kölner Bar King Georg, wo sie auf Einladung der Riddim-Redaktion über die Internationalisierung von Reggae und Dancehall sprach. Vormittags nahm Sie sich Zeit für ein Interview, das später in gekürzter Fassung in der taz erschienen ist. Ms Cooper, after an unprecedented hype Jamaican music nowadays seems to receive mainly negative press. What went wrong? Jamaican popular music has had a long history in being accepted internationally. What has happened is that Jamaican Dancehall music has ended up not being about conventional politics in the sense of breaking down systems of colonialism, but one wave of the lyrics has focused on gender politics and particularly sexual politics. What we hear of dancehall culture is mostly the lyrics that chant down homosexuality. This is not the entire spectrum of Dancehall lyrics. There are people like Tanya Stephens who talks about the way in which women sometimes end up being marginalized and they have to fight to come to the centre of the stage. It seems that the international media always focuses on the most negative thing about Jamaican dancehall culture. What I'd like to suggest is that there may be an element of racism in it. You know, 'The black youths from this third world country - why do they have so much visibility? Shut them up!" How would you describe the sexual politics of Dancehall? Many times when we dismiss Dancehall - we talk about 'culture' vs 'slackness'. 'Culture' would be lyrics that deal with social and political issues, that deal with "respectable" topics. And then slackness deals with sexuality, whether it is heterosexuality or homosexuality because in Jamaica, because in Jamaica, the focus of dancehall on heterosexuality is also condemned. Since when is this opposition characteristic for Jamaican culture? When did sex start? People have been blaming Edward Seage for the rise of slackness saying that it was because we return to this conservative Reagonomics people needed slackness as an alternative to politics in that crude way. Slackness is really tunes that deal with sexuality. So there's no point at which you could say slackness started. Yellowman, who is supposed to be the don of slackness, sings "Me no want! Where Fathead ya man left!" - I don't want what the men have eaten and left. He's updating earlier Mento song saying the exact same thing. In Greece BMW advertises used cars with the image of a beautiful woman and the caption. "You know, you're not the first." BMW is saying the same thing, using the same idea. In Dancehall most DJs stage a character. Where do the motifs to create these come from? They largely come out of American films - Westerns and gangster movies - or the Japanese heroic tradition. nd this mediated culture of masculinity is all about the glamorization of violence. Ninja Man, for example, tells that when he was a child he watched the movie "The harder they come", which is itself an indiginization of the Hollywood Western and he insisted that his grandmother give him a cowboy outfit for Christmas. And you also argue that Dancehall and the rise of slackness opens up new spaces for women. How would you describe these spaces? The black body in particular has been described as ugly. Dancehall culture is opening up a space in which black women can see themselves as beautiful, which is empowering. Reducing Dancehall culture to a mysoginist space does not recognize that women are claiming sexual power. Just listen to Tanya Stephen's lyrics where she's affirming that women desire: "Me want a man weh have a big ninja bike fi me ride pan/ Na waan no flim flam weh nuh have de right gear" (I want a man who has a big ninja bike for me to ride on /I don't want a limp man who doesn't have the right gear) That focus on sexuality is political in the sense that it is contesting the ideology of fundamentalist Christianity around heterosexuality. But ironically Dancehall culture is supporting a fundamentalist Christian condemnation which is coming out of the old testament. When I'm talking about politics, I'm talking about power dynamics between different groups in society and Dancehall culture largely affirms working-class values that are outside of the definition by the respectable middle-class. So the strong homophobia is an expression of class conflict? No, in Jamaica you have very wealthy people who have the same attitude towards homosexuals because it's coming out of the fundamentalist christian orientation. A fundamentalist Christian pastor is not different than a dancehall DJ in the question of homophobia. Who benefits from sustaining the idea of homophobia in Jamaica? First of all, the DJs. If you're at a show and your performance floppin', just draw a battyman tune and you get a easy "forward". That is a part of the criticism that is coming from within Jamaican society. People say "No!", your lyrics have to be more than just this formula "Battyman fi dead". But you also say that articulating violent phantasies against gay people is something a middle-class person would shy away from. Yes and no. It's complicated. But I'm not using complication as an excuse for unpleasant truth. Jamaican culture is decidedly homophobic. But middle-class and working-class Jamaicans do not always use the same language to express their perceptions of homosexuality. The working-class speak Jamaican and the middle-class largely speak English. This is where is gets really complicated. In the Jamaican language, graphic metaphors are often used to express abstract ideas. So a middle-class Jamaican may say in English, "I don't approve of homosexuality." A working class Jamaican may say the same thing in Jamaican, using exaggerated metaphorical language that sounds like literal violence: "all battyman fi dead." The same disapproval of homosexuality is expressed in two different languages with different resonances. When Buju Banton sings "Boom By By inna batty bwoy head/ Rude bwoy no promote no nasty man/Dem haffi dead", he is engaging layers of metaphor. First the words, "boom by by," simulate gun fire. In addition, Buju speaks the literal-minded language of the Old Testament book of Leviticus, translating its violent condemnation of homosexuality into the vivid Jamaican language. That expression - "all Battyman fi dead"- literally it sounds as though he's saying that every single homosexual man must die. I read it as a way of saying "Like in the bible, homosexuality is wrong." There's a form of mediation that takes place in which people's real anxieties around homosexuality are transferred into a language that allows them to express this anxiety in symbolic language which itself stops them from actually engaging in physical violence. This would mean that homophobic lyrics are a form of catharsis. That is what I argue. But the catharsis may be incomplete. You call these anxieties "heterophobia" - the fear of difference. The real problem with homophobia is not the fear so much of same-sex intercourse, but the fear of people who are perceived as different. It's about the construction of community: Who's inside and who's outside? I do understand that if I were gay I would take it as what it sounds like - a direct threat. And politically it makes sense for gay people to do that, so I understand your MP Volker Beck. Beck also claims that his and other people's anti-homophobic actions are successful. He claims that there are singers in Jamaica that distance themselves from battyman tunes. I've read that there was first, very, very small Gay Pride march in Montego Bay a couple of weeks back as far as I understand. What is your opinion on that? I don't know that Beck is responsible for the emergence of gay rights activism in Jamaica. In the 1990s, the Jamaican Forum for Lesbians, Allsexuals and Gays was established largely with the help of Jamaicans not resident in Jamaica who wanted to provide support for local gay rights activists. That said, it is true that gay rights activists that are not Jamaican, who know nothing about the culture, have helped to tarnish Jamaica's image globally, so much so that J-FLAG has had to distance itself from some of those external gay rights activists. J-FLAG has said: "These are our sisters and our brothers and our uncles and our aunts that you're gonna destroy if in our name you're telling people not to buy Red Stripe, to not go to Jamaica, to boycott Jamaica. No, we are Jamaican." That is the complexity of the negotiation taking place all the time. And one of the problems is that Gay rights activists do not know about the way in which Gay people in Jamaica created spaces for themselves to flourish. How would you describe these spaces? Spaces where they can freely party and live together, unbothered by the rest of the society. We've always had gay people in Jamaica, they have mostly stayed in the closet. Even in the so-called 'liberal north' it's only recently that gay people are out. Jamaica is changing, but not as rapidly. The former prime minister of Jamaica has been routinely "villified" as gay. In fact, the JLP actually used the rumour of P.J. Patterson being gay as a political weapon. So the prime minister had to go on radio and say "My credentials as a life long heterosexual person are impeccable". The fact that this discourse could enter politics means that the society is in a state of contestation. German activists often subsume Jamaican homophobia under the legal term "Volksverhetzung", a crime that is mostly associated with denying the atrocities of Nazi Germany, which include both homophobia and racism. Many Jamaicans object to homophobia being equated to racism because they see racism as an entirely different kind of discourse in which the black person is being made identical to the gay person and they will say: "Yeah, it's a pressure, but it's different.This homosexuality is 'abnormal' and blackness is normal." But if you push that same person they will concede that pre-judgment is being made about a person based on sexual orientation, "race" and it runs parallel. But historically speaking there are only few parallels. Jamaicans would argue that racism and homophobia are completely different. But they also understand that "all is fair in love and war." Gay rights activists in the war against homophobia will use whatever weapon they can. They know that if they claim that Jamaican Dancehall DJs are like Nazi German terrorists, they will get an easy "forward." Just like the DJs who get an easy forward for chanting down homosexuality. 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